NARRATOR: Doc Hulburt
DATE: October 1, 2000[??]
INTERVIEWER: It's about nine forty on Thursday, October 1st. And I'm here with Doc Hulburt. And we're going to be talking about the Wharf Rats. And my first question to you is how did you get involved with the Wharf Rats? How did you become a member?
Hulburt: Well, there's a little that goes before this. I had heard about this club from my father-in-law who first came here on the Island to spend summers 50 years ago. And, of course, I heard from him about this organization. And I'd read it in the papers and seen it in magazines, probably the National Geographic, and heard about it for years and was curious about it. And at an HA meeting one of my friends invited me down to the Wharf Rats. I don't think he remembered asking me. But it turned out to be after about five meetings I decided I wanted to be a member of this organization too. Up to that time I was reserving my judgment or whatever you want to call it. It's the best decision I ever made.
INTERVIEWER: Let me just check this one more time. [BRIEF PAUSE] Okay. So it turned out to be the best decision you've ever made.
Hulburt: Well, besides getting married and a few things like that. I've been a member for about five years now. And through this organization I met some terrific people. And it's not always apparent what kind of people they are when you first meet them, but after awhile all of a sudden you put things together and you're very happy to be amongst a group like this.
INTERVIEWER: So you said you've been a member for five years.
Hulburt: About five years.
INTERVIEWER: About five years.
INTERVIEWER: How do you become a member?
Hulburt: Well, that's a hard thing to say. But a part of it is showing interest and being a part of the scene for a couple of years, and at that time you may or may not get an invitation. But it's not an organization where you apply. You are invited. And they sort of mean what they say. In fact, they really do mean what they say. There is no reserved seat for the mighty. Being rich isn't enough. Being accomplished is not enough. Taking a good joke on yourself helps. And money alone is not enough either. This group was a group, a very informal group, oh, put together about 1920 from some of the hangers on--Herb Coffin's fishing supply shack down on the pier. He used to buy _____ and such and used to sell raincoats and things. And around every wharf front you get some people from all walks of life that just love the water. And they hang together and get a cup of coffee in the morning. Well, that's what happened to this group--it became formal. And now it's more formal because we've bought our property on the pier and now own it. So there are restrictions put upon us by the government, and so forth, such that we have to have a formal structure. Up until this time the only formal structure in this organization was the Commodore, and his word is law.
INTERVIEWER: Now when did you purchase the building?
Hulburt: This year.
INTERVIEWER: This year?
Hulburt: Yes. In fact, the mortgage was paid off this year. And I think we go back to last year to say-- I think it was a year ago September that we bought it. I'm unclear about that. It was last year. But we paid off the mortgage. It's now ours.
INTERVIEWER: Now since there's no or little hierarchy in structure, how did you go about buying the building? Did everyone just do what they could?
Hulburt: Yes. Everybody was asked to participate, to reach deep if they could. And it's amazing what response we got.
INTERVIEWER: Great. Can you tell me a little bit what it felt at first when you first became a member?
Hulburt: I was honored and very much surprised.
INTERVIEWER: Now I understand that the Membership Committee is secret. No one knows who's on it.
Hulburt: That's right.
INTERVIEWER: How did they let you know?
Hulburt: The Vice-Commodore brought me a card and handed it to me.
INTERVIEWER: And who was the Vice-Commodore at that time?
Hulburt: Al Silva. Now I could be wrong about that. I think it was Charlie Sayle last year. It was Al Silver that gave me the ticket. But Charlie wasn't feeling very well, and he died shortly afterwards. And Al Silva's the one that handed me the card. It had Charlie Sayle's signature on it. I might back up and say the first time I walked in and introduced myself I didn't know how to announce myself or introduce myself. So I just took the bull by the horn, walked in. There's a dozen people sitting around the table drinking coffee. And I said, "I'm Doc Hulburt. It's a title that's been attached to me but it has no significance whatsoever. And I got invited by Tommy Devine." There was dead silence for 30 seconds. Then they burst out laughing and said, "Tommy, you've done it again." So that's my introduction to Wharf Rat Club. Now half a dozen of these people--I knew Bob Burton and I knew Bob Tallman. I knew Charlie Sayle. And there were a number of others, two or three others there that morning that I knew also. So I knew half of the group that was sitting at the table. So tracking me down, finding out what kind of a guy I was was pretty easy, I'm sure. And that's essentially the way it happened for me.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And did you sort of go and sort of hang around for a year or two years?
Hulburt: Well, for awhile.
INTERVIEWER: For awhile.
Hulburt: Yes--several years.
Hulburt: And it's a strange thing. I still don't know what the criterion and that sort of thing is for judgmental type reasons. But if you can take a joke, you can tell a story--and it helps if you have been exposed to life a bit too. A great many of these people have something to do with the water. For instance, John Hardy--who's been a member for many, many years and been a prominent citizen on the Island _____ and many other things--has two grandfathers he never met. Because both died at sea in the coasting trades. You start looking into the background of many of these people and you find there is a nautical background there. A number of these people are competing--at what some people today would call an advanced age--they're still competing as part of Nantucket Yacht Club in the racing sessions here in the harbor. Many of them--Paul Morris, Maurice Thomas, Charlie Sayle, Alfred Orpin all have worked in the industry here on the Island, either clamming, scalloping, fishing, catboat fleet type operation. They're very much a part of the Island's history in a way. Helen Sherman who's now at least ten years older than I am and I'm 70--won't she love that--is the lead boat in the picture of the rainbow fleet rounding Brant Point many, many years ago that's hung on everybody's wall in Nantucket. She was a charter member. There's also another charter member--pardon me. There's another person still alive that was part of that scene too, but that's another story.
INTERVIEWER: How often do you go to the Club?
Hulburt: These days I hope to get there a couple times a week.
INTERVIEWER: And do you go through the whole summer that you're here?
Hulburt: Oh, yes. From the day I get here till the day I leave.
INTERVIEWER: Now how long is the Club open?
Hulburt: From late May until some time after October 1st, roughly speaking.
INTERVIEWER: So it's not heated.
Hulburt: Well, they've got a pot belly stove in the place that they scrounged around for lumber--anybody got any used fire wood. So they keep going as long as there's interest. And sometimes during the fall, for instance, if they're not open at the time they probably open for some of the holiday sessions that they have here.
INTERVIEWER: Now what events do you have through the summer?
Hulburt: We have a party--come on board party in Memorial Day, at which time we honor those members we've lost the previous year. And we have a Fourth of July party. Usually there's a Commodore's party in the middle of the summer and a Labor Day party. And that's it for parties.
INTERVIEWER: And then the rest is just the daily routine?
INTERVIEWER: Could you tell me what the daily routine down there is?
Hulburt: Well, at nine o'clock they open and at twelve noon they close. And that's pretty punctual. Now it's fallen--at least year it fell into a pattern. Nine o'clock was business of the world. Ten o'clock was medical reports. A lot of our members are old and they have bad wheels, as I call it--bad knees and such. And then they discuss ailments to a certain extent. And then if there's nothing else to do, somewhere around eleven, eleven-fifteen the morning story session starts. Who can top this comes after that. They still have a certain measure of fun, in a way. They've still got a quarter that's super glued to the floor next to the stove. And the person that tries to pick it up last is the person that's harassed till the next person tries to pick it up.
INTERVIEWER: And how often does that happen?
Hulburt: Well, not so you can see it very often. First time I tried to pick it up was when we were closing the place. Tommy and I were closing the place one morning. And I'm thinking--nobody would have left this thing here this long unless they glued it to the floor. So I had to check and see. And Tommy promised he'd never tell anybody.
INTERVIEWER: Can you tell me one of the favorite stories that you've told there or one of your most memorable stories that you've heard?
Hulburt: I can't remember stories--not even to tell them. But they do have some tall tales.
INTERVIEWER: Who were the best storytellers or the more creative of the storytellers?
Hulburt: The most creative used to be Tommy Devine and Paul Murphy. Tommy has had some strokes and he has problems trying to remember the punch line. So at this point-- Well, he's even beyond that. He's quite ill. But he makes it almost every day. One story that was around the Club was when Tommy showed up at the Club one day, opened the place up, wondered why nobody came. And it happened to be Sunday. They're not open Sunday. Of course, we got a lot of kick out of that. But how Tommy got involved in taking care of the place was his wife died oh, five years or so ago. And he was very, very close to his wife and very much looking for something to do to occupy his time. And he had turned over the managership of the Overlook Hotel to his son, and he was looking for something to do. So Tommy would make his rounds. He'd come down to the Whaling Museum, spend a little while with us. And that's a story that could take three hours to tell.
But, basically speaking, he'd tell a joke or two to Bob Allen, his best friend. And then he'd move on down either to the A&P where he used to work when he was a kid and the Wharf Rat Club. And he might be on his way to church--he might be going home--but always he'd stop in. And Tom in opening the place in the morning had a routine. He'd put the flag up, sweep the place out, pick up whatever was left over from the day before, wiped the water off the chairs on the porch and generally get the place ready for the day. This one morning he's opened the place up, he's cleaned all the chairs and everything. Once a hotel man always a hotel man. But one morning he hears a hail from off the end of the pier--he's inside. And he hears a hail. "I'm answering a distress call. What distress do you have?" This is the Coast Guard. And Tommy walks out on the porch and says something about, "There's no distress here. We're all right." He says, "Well, you've got the flag hung upside down." Well, that was good for three years.
So Tom got razzed about that forever. And some of the stories that are best told, as far as I'm concerned, are the practical jokes. They had one fellow that bragged about the size fish he caught. And the guys were getting sick of it. What are we going to do about this? Two of them finally figured out a way to top his story with one of their own. So what they did was make sure one of the big containers for soft drinks was empty. Then they went down to the pier and bought the biggest fish they could get from anybody, doubled that thing in half and stuffed it in the cooler. And when that fellow started talking about fish again, which I'm sure they led into the story and he was telling about the big one he caught the night before or whatever. And one of the fellows that was partners to this thing says, "You know, we were out last night and we caught a fish bigger than anything you ever caught in your life." And this fellow was kind of getting, "Oh, no, it couldn't be." And one of the fellows sneaked around back, picked that fish out of the container and flopped it in his lap and said, "Now, you got one bigger than that?" And that was good for a long time too as a story.
INTERVIEWER: Who comes up with the best practical jokes?
Hulburt: I couldn't even begin to tell you. They can all.
INTERVIEWER: What are some of the other memorable ones?
Hulburt: Jokes I can't tell you. I'm no good at that. One of the stories I love to tell was about Moe Thomas and Paul Morris. Moe Thomas was dying of brain cancer. And he had a show in a little art gallery or whatever it is over here. He had a whole wall to himself. And Moe and Paul Morris were in the art business in New York for years before they came to the Island. And they were clamming and scalloping buddies as well. And Moe would crew for Paul all the time. And Paul says that Moe and he never had to say anything. Everybody knew what came next and did it. And he says he was fun to work with. Well, being that close to Paul Morris, Moe knew that Paul had always wanted all his life a schooner. And Paul never had one. He had plenty of cat boats but no schooners. And here's Moe Thomas over there in the gallery, glad to see my wife and myself there. And he gets talking about his friend, Paul Morris. And he says, "You know, Paul has always wanted a schooner." He says, "Now I've given him one. See this picture right up here? That's a schooner. Here's Paul at the wheel."
INTERVIEWER: About how long ago was this?
Hulburt: Just a year or two. A very short time ago--maybe a year ago last summer. I forget now. It's hard for me to tell jokes or anything like that. It's like the old fellow said, "I don't want to hear the joke." "Why not?" He says, "If it's a clean one I'm not interested. If it's a dirty one I've heard it."
INTERVIEWER: I expect these tapes will be fun to listen to.
Hulburt: I hope so.
INTERVIEWER: For other people as well, because there will be lots of jokes like that hopefully too.
INTERVIEWER: Well, since this is the beginning and this is the first of the projects--the first of the tapes actually that I've done--I know you'd given me a list of other people that you suggested.
Hulburt: Yes, I have.
INTERVIEWER: But could you talk a little bit about some of the other members or maybe give some--first of all, a little bit more about Tommy. When did he first come here?
Hulburt: When did Tommy first come here?
INTERVIEWER: Mmm hmmm.
Hulburt: Well, he's close to being 80 years old now and he came here when he was 15. Got off the boat. Got a job at the A&P bagging groceries and essentially never went home--back to South Boston, Massachusetts. I think he spent some time back there after he got out of the military in World War II. But Tom is irrepressible. This is in World War II now that I'm telling about him. He was in combat as one of Patton's tankers--tank group. And they were in a situation in France where everything got all mixed up. Here they are in the midst of a bunch of German's shooting at them. And here comes the General Gavin's paratroopers in and they're floating down. And here's Tom coming to salute. And General Gavin's comment, "Not here, young man--not here." But he basically-- As far as I can tell, his future mother-in-law took pity on him and fed him because he wasn't getting much out of bagging groceries--and at least on Sunday's some more as well. And finally he ended up marrying Josephine. And it was a very, very close marriage--very close. And 30 years later he owns a hotel on the Island.
So he and Josephine did pretty well. And an awful lot of people have stayed here, including some types of industry that could have stayed anywhere. They just loved _____. His friends would wander in and wash dishes for him _____ the table. No money changed hands. But if they were busy they'd pitch in and help out. Most informal hotel on the Island. Some of the people that went there--Dick Swain used to show up for coffee every morning. He used to work for NHA. He also was a Wharf Rat member. And Mr. Underwood of the deviled ham business--he used to stay there. I can't think of any others at the moment, but there were quite a cross section of people. Dick Swain was a Wharf Rat too.
INTERVIEWER: Was he still alive when you were first going to the Club?
Hulburt: Oh, yes. He and I worked together for several years in the mill.
INTERVIEWER: At the mill?
INTERVIEWER: I didn't know you worked at the mill.
Hulburt: Oh, yes.
INTERVIEWER: All right.
Hulburt: In fact, they wanted me to be the miller in the worst way. Why? Because they needed somebody who--not that I knew anything about operating the mill because Peter's got more than any of us. But they were looking for a person with gray hair to handle some of the crazy kids that come in and drop nails down between the wheels. So I didn't take that assignment because I was interested in ships and shipping. And that's been a dominant interest since I was a kid. And that's why I'm working in the Whaling Museum and no place else at this point.
INTERVIEWER: Because you did work at Hadwen [Hadwen House, NHA property] too.
Hulburt: Oh, yes. I worked Hadwen for a number of years.
INTERVIEWER: So I had no idea you worked up at the mill with Dick Swain.
Hulburt: Oh, yes. That was a scene.
INTERVIEWER: Well, tell me a little bit about him. I actually never knew him.
Hulburt: He had a bizarre sense of humor. And from what Peter says, not all of what he told you was absolutely true. He could tell a story too. But when Dick died I tried to put together some information for NHA about his life. And he and John Gilbert used to be very, very close. John Gilbert at one time was the miller here, among other things that he did. But John and Dick Swain were always part of the children's drama scene down here. John would do the scenery and Dick would do the lighting. And this was an every week type thing I think. For more about that you'd have to see John Gilbert. But he and John Gilbert and their wives were very close into the drama scene in those days. And John filled me in a lot--explained. He told me that he had never seen a man who knew more about things and was good at them than Dick Swain. He said the guy was incredible. Now his electronics came from the Army. And he knew it. This is Dick Swain. And at one time he had to do with the installation of equipment both at the airport and the Loran station up here in Nantucket. In fact, he used to fry eggs on the transmitter _____ over there.
And Dick and John did the first big item that was manufactured by the looms down here on Main Street--weaving. And John says of Dick Swain, "I don't know where he learned what he learned. He even had a loom at home." But he says, "I did nothing but turn the shuttle at the end. He was the one that was the weaver." And this thing was 12 feet long or something. It was a long big item. And so he was involved in music--he was involved in drama--he was involved in electronics. And he owned his own 27 foot sailboat. And I think Swain's Wharf was named for his family. He, too, was a descendant of the first Swain on the Island--maybe by adoption, I'm not sure. But he was the first boy born on this Island whose wife was named Swain. And he's part of that family--either by adoption or otherwise. So he was full of Island stuff. And his grandmother or great-grandmother lived in one or two houses up there on Main Street. They had a house in what's now--the next house there was what Mary Ditmar[?]?
INTERVIEWER: The one across the street?
Hulburt: The two white ones with the white pillars.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay. The Lodge's house now.
Hulburt: Yes. The Lodge's house now. And somebody in that family was his--that's the Swain. You can check with Bill Barney. He's part of that crew too.
Hulburt: In fact, one time in his life Dick lived with Bill Barney and his family I guess in, say, high school age. But Dick Swain would never let anybody get one up on him. He was a good practical joker. I haven't got time to tell you the best one of all because it took place over a two year period. He finally got one up for good on me. Laugh--I could laugh till the day I die. But that guy, rather than walk down to the store and buy a metal latch--a window, door, or anything else--he's sit there with a knife and a piece of wood and make it in less time than a person would take to go down to the store and buy it. And when it came to seamanship as far as working with rope line we call it, I haven't seen many any better. And I would know. I used to be a rigger in the United States Navy. I got a think to remember what they call a monkey's fist. He put a monkey's fist on every one of those ropes in the mill that held the windows closed.
INTERVIEWER: Yes. I remember those.
Hulburt: Yes. Well, that was an outgrowth of something that I said to him. And that's that two year story that I was talking about. Roughly, it boiled down to the fact that-- I broached the subject. Maybe I should tell it.
INTERVIEWER: Yes, you should. I want to hear it.
Hulburt: One day it was weird. We're talking about the monkey's fist he put on those things. And he had made one to replace one in a piece of rope that had gone bad. These folks--you people who are listening--are the ropes that held the window shutters shut in the mill. Today they do it some other way I think. But anyway, true seamanship would have put monkey's fists on all of them because that miller had the time and millers equalled sailors. I mean they were very close. One day I made some comment about a Turk's head knot. He gave me the ha ha. He said, "That's no Turks head knot. That's a monkey's fist." And, of course, I hadn't made one of those things for 40 years. Anyway, a couple of days later--four days later, five days later, maybe a week later I made the comment to him--I said, "I haven't made one of those damn things in 40 years." He says, "How did you make them?" I said, "Well, we used to take a piece of pipe--cut off a piece of pipe about an inch long, an inch across for the weight that would go inside. Then we'd weave the monkey's fist around that for heaving line." This is something you use--it's the first line thrown at the dock as you approach the dock from the ship.
Two, three weeks later he says, "You know, that's the wrong kind of thing to use in a monkey's fist." I said, "We're off a _____. Now where the heck are you going to find anything else but a piece of pipe?" He says, "Well, you know, you're supposed to use a round piece of stone." And now I'm going home. Next year I'm back and there's two or three more episodes of fighting. He says, "You know, a stone should have come around the horn." And, of course, I know at that time there's no way to get one up on this guy. And a month later, just about the time I'm going home and I'm not working every day with him, I notice a copy of Clifford Ashley's Knots up on top of the beam there in the mill. And I'm willing to bet my last nickel that that man had to look up in the book to see how a monkey's fist was made. [LAUGHTER] That's enough of that.
INTERVIEWER: Now do you know if his copy is still up there?
Hulburt: Yes. And I told Peter--I said, "There is no better hands that could have it than you. Keep it."
INTERVIEWER: So he was also a member of the Wharf Rats.
Hulburt: Oh, yes. He'd been going there for quite some time. And one day he asked, "How do you get to be a member of this club?" And somebody said, "Dick, you were elected two years ago. Didn't you know it?" See, we've got a very formal organization. Yes. And Dick was, you know, a little like Bob Allen. At first you didn't know how you--you didn't take a long time to find out how you sit with a person. And I worked with Dick for a year and a half, two years--not every day because there were other assignments like the Hadwen House that I had to fulfill. But they were talking about it and I said, "You know, I visited the Rats the other day." And I saw that grin come across his face, and I knew that he thought well of me. I had no idea that he was a member until he told me. And when that grin came across his face I knew I was a friend.
INTERVIEWER: So are there any other members that I won't be able to talk to that you think we should know something about?
Hulburt: John Hardy.
Hulburt: One of the people I think a great deal of. He was active in Island life. He ran one of the motels or something or other around here. And after World War II-- Let's back up. He came to the Island about 1917 as a kid. And he made his life here the rest of his life. But he was active in many, many parts of this Island's structure. He had been a car dealer here in 1946. Oh, back up a step. He was in Coast Guard in World War II. And he was over in Britain with two of his buddies--Gibby Wayne and somebody else--and they spent the war in London during the _____ and all that. And one of them was on a landing craft on D-Day and was there for several days. And the other ones had been exposed to considerable problems. Because the Coast Guard essentially put boats on a beach and were a big part of the landing _____ forces in World War II. Although they don't get much credit for it, they were very busy people. But John spent years as a _____ here in town. I think he was first _____ for awhile. Ran the Yacht Club for 17 years. And the motel--he was active in that for quite a number of years. You wonder how could a guy do that. Well, heck, he was 90 years old when he died. He'd done a lot of things and done them well. His depth of understanding of what happened on this Island and why some things worked, why some things didn't was absolutely prodigious. And for some reason he liked me. I don't know. Who's to say.
But I used to like to hear him talk about things. And if I wanted to know something about how things worked in town or how things came about he'd tell me what he knew. And he wasn't a person that would _____ things just because it didn't go his way. But he hunted on this Island. He knew where the blue clay streak of clay runs across part of the Island. He knew this Island very well. Oh, other members. Charlie Sayle. Who can talk about the Wharf Rat Club without speaking of Charlie Sayle. I met Charlie over 40 years ago--about 40 years ago. The first year I was on the Island I had an interest in ships and shipping and he was making models of ships. There were a number of times I sat in his shop over there listening to him gam with other people. One of the fellows that showed up one day was on a tugboat that pushed the--I believe it was a seven-masted schooner _____ out of her berth in New York when she was making her last trip. Charlie was an unusual person. I had an opportunity to visit Howard Chappel, who at that time was Director of the Transportation Department for the Smithsonian in Washington, DC. I was working nights and had my mornings free, and I could do what I wanted to do. I called him and I spoke to him on the telephone. He said, "Come on over." So I spent a couple of days with him talking around the office watching what he did, and that sort of thing. And he says, "Tell Charlie he's three years behind on his shipment of some models he was making for the Smithsonian in Washington, DC."
So that's a side of Charlie that you don't often see. He was an expert ship modeler before he got into the ivory carving business with his children. Paul Morris. The first time he ever got to the Island saw a boat off the end of the pier down here and asked some people lounging on the end of the pier, as there always is, "do you know who owns that boat?" "Yup." "Do you suppose he'd sell that boat?" "Don't know." "Would he talk to me?" "Don't know. Probably." And a whole series of questions like that. A little while later he finds out where Charlie lives by yes and no, yup, no sequence of events. He knocks on Charlie's door and Charlie says something about, "What are you looking for?" He says, "Well, I like the boat that's down there." This is a boat that Charlie built himself with his own hands. And it was a _____ sloop and was around here for years and years. And Charlie invited him in--yes. And next thing he knows there's a full glass. "You drink?" "Yup." He had a glass of rum on the table. And then the conversation really did start. And the result of it was somewhere along the line Paul told him what he was--an artist in New York City. And Charlie eventually bought or commissioned him to do two paintings. And those paintings hung over his workbench in his shop till the day he died. And the year was 1953--'57, sorry. And those two paintings were done.
Now here's El Duco--me--going to an auction trying to buy something that used to belong to Charlie Sayle--Mark Iric's[sp?] auction. He had a bunch of stuff of Charlie Sayle's. And I see Paul Morris on the painting. In fact, there were two there that night, and it was all I could afford to buy one at the time. And I did get one. I got Paul Morris' "Hell Sea." It's hanging upstairs now. One of the two. It turns out later--I'm talking to Paul Morris this summer--and I take my painting over to show him. He says, "That's the one I made for Charlie Sayle." So I have that painting upstairs. Very happy to have it. But that's how Paul Morris met Charlie Sayle. And they became very close through the years, as many of these people did. So it's funny how things work out. I took that thing over--that drawing over to Paul Morris this summer and showed it to him, and that's how I know the rest of the story. I had taken my daughter over who's an artist--over to introduce her to Paul. I didn't get a word in. Those two people talked for hours.
INTERVIEWER: You mentioned your daughter. Do any of your children have interest in becoming Wharf Rats? Are they here long enough?
Hulburt: No. Now when it comes to the sons-in-law, the answer is yes.
Hulburt: One of them is a little on the prissy side, and very well educated and a master of the English language. And he couldn't understand why anybody would get involved in any group that was named Wharf Rats. And finally I took him down a couple of times, and all of a sudden he just did a 180 degree switch.
INTERVIEWER: And laughed.
INTERVIEWER: How many people have you brought to the Club to sort of introduce them that have actually-- Have you brought anyone that's ever become a member or is working their way towards that?
Hulburt: I think so.
Hulburt: I'm sure there must have been. [SIDE B IS BLANK]
[END OF INTERVIEW]